Shinobi Soldiers

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Sandstorm, Mar 15, 2010.

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  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Tell you what Ninpei I'll give you a hand as you seem to have made the error, that I pointed out, twice now.

    The forward for Katori Shinto-ryu Warrior Tradition is signed off:

    "Iizasa Shurinosuke Yasusada
    Twentieth Generation
    Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu Headmaster"

    Besides being in the book and in other sources it's also sort of, as far as I'm aware, general knowledge about the ryu.

    Here you go too: http://www.koryu.com/guide/katorishinto.html

    And you wonder why people are questioning you...

    Well done though keep up the good work...... :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  2. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Why were you expecting MA? Otake sensei wrote in his last book, which is two years old now btw, that the teachings found in Katori Shinto Ryu were defence against the ninja or counter espionage. You're late.
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    There are a couple of reasons for that too, related to the "philosophy/outlook" of the ryu-ha.

    That of course is according to the small amount of info in the aforementioned book by Otake sensei.

    This I think is the problem people are having with Ninpei. It's not that he's hit some big revolutionary idea quite the opposite actually. Also in my opinion he doesn’t seem to have a grasp of the ryu-ha of the Bujinkan or the relation between “skill sets”, for want of a better term, and the ryu-ha which propagate those skill sets. He seems to have taken a narrow view and made broad statements from that.

    He's taken this view:

    Katori does "x" for it's Ninjutsu therefore anyother ryu-ha that doesn't do what they do are invalid. :rolleyes: :bang:


    His approach seems to me to be questionable to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  4. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I consider any training that teaches you fighting, fighting methods or the tactical aspects/mindset linked to fighting - along with the pursuit of perfecting these types of training - to be a martial art.

    I don't like to keep such a narrow view...look at styles such as pankration and Yağlı güreş ...

    Yup, martial arts
     
  5. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Boiled down, the answer seems to be yes.

    One rule of translating is that the work is done by a person who is able to read the original text. That seems so obvious, yet Anthony seems content to list himself as a translator even though he can't read the language.

    It is ok to have a native speaker of the language tell you things you may not know. If there is an expression you have not run across a native speaker can tell you what it means in that language. So if you are translating a Japanese text, you can talk to Japanese in Japanese about a phrase or something and then take it into English based on your understanding of the text.

    Yes, you can get your Japanese girlfriend to tell you how to use the heater after she reads the directions. That is not translation. You go to any professional translating organization and they will tell you that it is not acceptable to put out something based on what others tell you it means.

    You have to take the new knowledge and put it in context of the entire text. You have to be able to actually read the text and be able to take everything in at once. You can learn new phrases, etc while translating but the final version must be based on what you understand of the text. If you can't read the text yourself even after this, you have no right to call yourself the translator.

    Furthermore, I have noticed that in the process of learning the language while in Japan the gaijin I know all pick up the important little facts that make the difference in looking at an historical text. The other way is like a grade school report done by someone who just wants to get through the project with as little work as possible. I have seen to many works like that passed off in the West. This looks to be the same type of thing.

    In any case, I am already providing a free translation to many Bujinkan students with commentary based on my greater knowledge and experience in the subject matter. So I really don't see the need for most of us here to actually buy a translation put out by someone who can't even read a Japanese newspaper.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  6. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Dreams of Madness

    I would agree, personally.

    Me neither. There are lots of martial arts, by our definition, that are not even Asian. I meant more of a definition to the average US (and maybe UK) citizen who might generally be uniformed except through cinema or second-/third-hand from friends, relatives, etc.

    I think one has to admit that there are radically different definitions of terms and ideas between one who practices and is knowledgeable of a skillset and those who aren't. Case in point, my idea of "cooking" is, I'm sure, wildly different than the average TV-watching, pre-fab microwaving dinner eater.

    Thanks for the response, Rubber Tanto. :)
     
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member


    I think part of it is that he probably spent "x" amount of time in the Bujinkan plodding along, even if he did spend a year in Japan surely that is not enough time to build up a significant relationship with anyone nor is it sufficient time to be exposed to any of the "deeper" teachings of the ryu-ha, that's assuming he even got close to being taught any ryu-ha specific material in depth.

    He then trots along to Otake sensei who from the look of it chats about a few things that are public knowledge anyway and he comes away thinking he's been given some super big Ninja secret.

    Newsflash Ninpei the senior teacher of a ryu-ha like Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu is probably not going to be disclosing any deep and meaningful teachings of the ryu-ha to any old joe blogs that comes along. IMO!
     
  8. ninpei

    ninpei Valued Member

    Hi Everyone, hope you are well.

    I will be honest I do not have time to answer all these, I mean that in earnest, its like a 1000 V 1. I was told not to post on here as it was meant to be a group of X-kans who are closed mined. This was what I was warned. As I can not answer all I will try and get the main points again. You have not answered my questions, a few points were put I do not have the time to follow all the links.

    I am not here to discredit anyone, I am here to say that using the term ninjutsu or ninpo taijutsu is not supported by any document of reference from history.

    While ninjutsu is a huge umbrella term for many skills, all I am saying is that it does not appear to contain a specific fighting style. Thus, those in the bujinkan, who go to a club to learn ninpo taijutsu/ninjutsu/ninja arts from the “34th grandmaster of ninjutsu” are not in fact being taught any ninjutsu. Those who buy Dr Hatsumis books on NINJUTSU normally get a 90% taijutsu book with some Takamatsu stories and then some extracts from one of the common manuals.

    You do not pay Tuttle (the company you are thinking of is Turtle). The book will be called

    The True Path of the Ninja
    A Translation of the Shoninki: A 17th Century Ninjutsu Manual.
    Editor: Mr Sperry.



    1. I state that ninjutsu is NOT nor does it have an independent fighting style. I am asking anyone to show me any proof of this, any will do?
    2. I lived in japan 2004/2005 and trained only in Bujinkan and I lived in japan again between 2006/2007 and trained in genbukan and then trained at times back at bujinkan, but not as much as at the genbukan dojo.
    3. The guy who said that the dog technique was useless because, why do you not just rob the house? If you are in the garden? Clearly this person is looking from a modern angle. A landed samurai may have acres and acres of land that he owns. So if he, the nnja wanted to get closer to the house this is what he would do? I can not believe that any of you would even try to out do the head teacher of the KSR in ninjutsu? Really?
    4. the man who said that the dog bit had no issue in todays society? We are talking about ninjutsu! The medieval skill of scouting/espionage/demolition etc. what did you expect? I must say that was the strangest comment?
    5. Also, i know that KSR is not the only school that teaches ninjutsu, but it is the only sengoku period school that exists that I have had a chance to explore but that plus the manuals was enough to see a basic reality of ninjutsu.
    6. How many times must I say, I am the theorist, the gentleman who has his translation will tell you how difficult it is. Who cares about the work load? That is my business.
    7. I have no care if Dr Hatsumi claims to be a real ninja descendent, what I have an issue with is the distortion of ninjutsu into a martial art?
    8. Can anyone name the scrolls in Hatsumis school that deal with ninjutsu, I would like dates, titles, history. Is their anything that is not just faith?


    Guys I do not mind doing an investigation here, but you have a different view as I do. You seem to think, I think I know lots about ninjutsu, when in fact I am trying to run an investigation into the subject. You guys come on here for a fight, this is made clear by Manga. Where as I come here for information and discussion. You have asked me to prove my sources, I have done and you called and belittled the head of Katori Shinto ryu, the shonionki, the Bansenshukai, the nindpeden, and some other minor scrolls. You seem to think that these are not real sources of evidence? Instead you attack and say hatsumni knows more then all these sources, why. because he said so… you can buy many copies of scrolls online, where are the Togakure scrolls? Have you seen them? I would love for Hatsumi to come out and say “here are the scrolls Antony, this is my proof” but has anyone seen them (not just ninja scrolls, togakure ones) And you accuse me of looking through a filter? Well yes, my filter is all the historical evidence I can get my hands on, how many of you have held original scrolls, interviewed people? Just where is your info from?

    An Analogy:
    Two Samurai are in a room, one is trained in ninjutsu one is not.
    “Please show me your samurai fighting arts”
    The normal samurai does a wrist lock then asks
    “please some me your ninjutsu skills”
    The ninja/samurai does a wrist lock.
    “but that’s the same as what I did?”
    “no that was ninpo taijutsu, mine was more ninja style!”

    So in reality did a man trained in ninjutsu have a different fighting style to any samurai, an underground style that existed only in the secret teachings of ninjutsu?

    Or would it be more realistic if the ninja showed him something from the masses of information on ninjutsu, and I mean masses, all of which a quite well recorded yet none show any fighting. The more academic X-Kans openly admit that the fighting system in bujinkan comes from the none ninjutsu schools. Thus Hatsumi would have a better claim if he showed some ninjutsu?

    Anyway, try to keep your questions to one section. I do have deadlines and I do have an editor, so I am afraid I can not come on here much. I really hope someone is willing to join this investigation. There is no winner or loser, there is just deeper. If you guys can show any proof of hatsumis claims we can move on. If we do not start moving on then I will have to leave, the translation team are quite busy with some scrolls that are much more difficult than the Shoninki. If you do not believe that the book is coming out, you can all wait until it comes out, if it does not then please, send me all the hate mail you wish.

    Thank you for your time

    Antony Cummins


    Ps the guy who did the last post, why would he show me? because i asked him, if he did not give it to me then why would he do a forward. do not worry, all the points will come clear as more gets published. all you have to do is wait. all questions will be answered.

    PPS which one of you is from the manchester group?
     
  9. ninpei

    ninpei Valued Member

    please stop insulting the translation before you have seen it? you do not know the amount of hours that goes into skype conversations and the fine toothpicking of each sentence. i never want to see the kanji for shinobi again!
     
  10. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    You seem to be operating under the same delusion as the koryu.com folks - that being that the Bujinkan (and the rest of the Hatsumiden) claim that everything we're teaching/learning is ninjutsu. This is decidedly not the case. Ninjutsu in our context refers to the stealth subset of skills utilised by the Iga no mono. No one claims, for example, that Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu waza are 'ninja techniques'
     
  11. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Pretty much how I look at it myself. Consider also that, when thinking of ninjutsu, most people today have a "tactical/technical" focus: sneaking into a castle and obtaining battle plans, that sort of thing. There is a tendency to ignore the less glamorous but no less brilliant "strategic" side, which might involve years of work and behind-the-scenes unrecognized influence culminating in a large-scale outcome.

    As far as the idea of "ninja martial arts" goes, Hatsumi sensei has stated in one of his books that the fighting styles of Iga-region ninja were essentially similar, which sounds like simple common sense to me. There is no reason to think that shinobi living and operating in a particular area wouldn't simply pick up whatever fighting arts they were exposed to and considered effective, possibly then adding on some modifications most suitable to their purposes. My understanding is that this is the case with Togakure ryu taijutsu: That in the densho, Gyokko and Koto ryu are covered first, and then you get into the Togakure-specific kata which seem oriented more specifically to situations involving resisting/escaping arrest or battlefield capture situations, fighting in low-light conditions, etc.

    So if you're learning the Togakure fighting methods, are you learning ninjutsu? Well, I suppose you could truthfully say (if you believe in its origins) that you are learning a small fragment of ninjutsu. Not a highly important fragment, either, since a shinobi who found himself forced to use those methods had already pretty much screwed the pooch. On the other hand, absorbing the mindset that went into the development of those methods does, in my opinion, open "hidden doors" into an understanding of ninjutsu in the "larger" sense of the term.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Ah now Otake sensei is the head teacher.... :rolleyes:

    Yeah stick that in your note book for the future it'll stop you looking like a pillock ;)

    Oh and Ninpei your response to my comment about Otake sensei disclosing material to you shows that for a start you missed my point and second you don't have a clue about transmission in the classical arts.

    Keep up the good work though :cool: I hear they have a two for one offer on rope at do-it-all this weekend!
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I'm off to keiko soon so I'll read the rest properly when I come back.

    I notice that Ninpei's answers are slowly been made to fit and fill his errors that people have pointed out.
    That in itself is very telling, IMO, at least the previous posts are here intact.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  14. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Dreams of Madness

    For the record, I'm not an X-kan person. I also don't like to view myself as "closed minded". But I could be wrong on the later half. :confused:

    I understand you are busy, and I do wish to listen to what you have to say, but you may consider taking a little extra time with your posts. I think if you can weather the storm, so to speak, you may have some cool insights and information to add. And I know they have you on the defensive right now, but don't take it all so perosonally.

    This conversation, in my opinion, should be about the information and not the person. We are all flawed fleshy machines, but if you are honest in your quest to learn about ninjutsu, then perhaps spending some time here will teach you something you didn't know. And perhaps we'll learn something as well. But only if we all take the time and muster up the patience. :)
     
  15. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Ninpei said - "You guys come on here for a fight, this is made clear by Manga."

    Not even close my little cupcake :love:

    In your case, as in the case of say Domatello, there's no challenge at all. It's like shooting fishies in a barrel :hat:

    As Dean has said, you're gradually changing your story to accommodate the flaws we've been pointing out.

    I really hope someone is willing to join this investigation.

    I really hope someone is willing to join this investigation because that will lend me some level of credibility. Fixed :cool:

    An Analogy:
    Two Samurai are in a room, one is trained in ninjutsu one is not.
    “Please show me your samurai fighting arts”
    The normal samurai does a wrist lock then asks
    “please some me your ninjutsu skills”
    The ninja/samurai does a wrist lock.
    “but that’s the same as what I did?”
    “no that was ninpo taijutsu, mine was more ninja style!”


    See, one wrist lock uses a common mechanism to restrain, restrict and damage. The other uses that common mechanism to create an opening for escape. See how your ignorance shines in the light of day?

    I will be honest I do not have time to answer all these, I mean that in earnest, its like a 1000 V 1. I was told not to post on here as it was meant to be a group of X-kans who are closed mined.

    Actually no, we're not closed-minded at all. We're critically minded and that means we don't accept things on face value. Many of us have been round the block more times than you've got brain cells and we've seen this a thousand times. You're just the latest person to come along with minimal training who has glanced at some historical data and made huge jumps of logic to reach erroneous conclusions. Many of your arguments were used for many years by Harunaka Hoshino and his Fuma-ryu people for example and look how that ended up. In fact he also claimed to have translated these same old documents and exclaimed how only he knew the real ninjutsu! How do I know this? Because right now in my hands I hold a ream of paperwork that I received from Hoshino when I wrote to him in the late eighties. And just like you he displayed horrendous gaps in knowledge, misinterpretations of technique that stood out a mile and a glance at his taijutsu shows that he is just as untrained as yourself. Speaking of which, you still haven't answered my question regarding what actual grades you hold and in what actual arts :hat:

    Just out of interest, is your editor aware of the controversies surrounding you and the contempt your peers hold for your skills and knowledge? Does he not press you for reasons why you're correct and we're all incorrect? I shall ask him I think :)

    Of course you'll now dismiss these points by labelling me a troublemaker and fight starter. But the questions and points will remain here for all to see and your lack of response will likewise be more illustrative :cool:

    If we do not start moving on then I will have to leave

    In other words, I'm out of my depth, I have no valid replies that will satisfy the questions being asked of me and so I will make my excuses and leave. K BAI :hat:
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010
  16. Muawijhe

    Muawijhe Dreams of Madness

    You know, that's all so true in many things in life. I would expand upon that point some more, but I think The Onion sums it up best in this video clip:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRNs2X5Q4"]World Premiere Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - The Onion [/ame]

    :evil:
     
  17. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Dear Mr Cummings,

    I will attempt to keep this as civilized as possible, to make sure I get my points through respectfully.

    How do you know this? How many documents have you actually read? And for how long have you researched this subject? Have you seen all documents of reference from history? It is a very bold statement to make. What would be a true statement, is this: "I, Antony Cummings, have not seen any document of reference from history that uses the term ninpo taijutsu".

    This is a very smart way of putting it. Naturally, "ninjutsu" does not contain a specific fighting style. Just like any other umbrella term wouldn't. What many though are claiming, is that there are ryûha such as Gyokko Ryû and Togakure Ryû that have been used by ninja that include a wide range of martial aspects, including fighting, stealth, espionage, etc etc. And these skills have been summed up as ninjutsu by the ryûha's various Sôke. The word Ninjutsu in itself does not equal a martial art (in terms of combat techniques) - but it may or may not contain martial arts (combat techniques) depending on the ryûha and context.

    It depends on the definition of the term. There are many interpretations and definitions of it.

    You are correct in this. There is no school named as "ninjutsu". There are ninjutsu ryûha however, that include combat techniques.

    In other words, and I sincerely mean this as politely as it can possibly sound, you did not form any relationship with any instructor in either organisation, thus learned very little, and was most definitely not even able to scratch the surface of the Takamatsu-den arts. Which means that you pretty much have very little to say about schools such as Togakure Ryû or Gyokko Ryû, since the only way to get to see documents from these schools is through a relationship with someone who has them.

    Emphasis mine.

    You can see some on the Takamatsu DVD put out by Quest.

    Not just lots - you make it seem you know all since you claim things as you do, and the way you do it.

    Sincerely, Mr. Cummings. This was not a very intelligent phrase. I advise you to retract it, as it makes you sound like a child. (I.e. OF COURSE there are no togakure scrolls online. Why would there be?)

    Mr. Cummings, if you expect Hatsumi sensei to show you the scrolls after only one year of training, followed by a year of training in the Genbukan, then you are delusional. Seriously.

    What do you mean? I honestly don't understand. Are you questioning whether Hatsumi sensei has ninjutsu scrolls from togakure ryû? Seriously? The Takamatsu DVD shows plenty.

    I know one who has. Much more extensively than you. I suggest you seek him out next time he comes to your country. You know his name.

    I will respect any analogy you make as soon as you actually receive some real training in this art. Until then, follow your own advice and keep it historical.

    I think you are confused. You think that we believe all ninjutsu Ryûha teach the same fighting style. I have no idea where you got that from. Each ryûha has its own method. Just like two samurai swordsmen - from different ryûha - will have different fighting styles. Naturally.

    I assume by forward you mean foreword. Do you really think just because someone writes a foreword that he has told you information, over a cup of tea, that otherwise is intended via isshi sôden to a trusted disciple?

    And sincerely, did you just say "because I asked him"? Please tell me you did not. Because if you did, you just proved you should study some japanese culture, japanese martial arts transmission, and human relations in general.
     
  18. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Ninpei said - "Also, i know that KSR is not the only school that teaches ninjutsu, but it is the only sengoku period school that exists that I have had a chance to explore but that plus the manuals was enough to see a basic reality of ninjutsu."

    Sorry to be back so soon but that nice Mr Will just raised a good point when he quoted you here. Just exactly how did you explore Katori Shinto-ryu? How long did you study the ryu? As a student of KSR can I please ask you to indulge me and describe the relevance of the term "karasu tobi"?
     
  19. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    Oh dear. The basic fact is the guy that will be listed as "translator" can't even read a modern day newspaper. That does not bode well at all.

    And as I said, there is already an English language version of the Shoninki being put out for free by someone with more knowledge and experience in the subject matter. Why risk money on someone who seems so obviously eager to become an expert but has not put in very much time in being a student?
     
  20. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    I was in a conversation once with someone who has been taught some of this whilst in Japan.


    No one hates you, we are all laughing at you and poking you with a stick
     
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